Isle Royale Forums

If you read my trip report from a couple of weeks ago, you will know that I got lost. I didn't have a compass when all of this occured and have learned my lesson. I have already purchased one from REI, but before deciding to stick with it, can anyone suggest what they would select and tell me why you would recommend the one you would choose. Thanks. Here is a list of the ones REI has:

http://www.rei.com/search?sortby=Price+ ... Ccompasses

I have the military version on which this is based: http://www.rei.com/product/792829/brunt ... ic-compass

(The price listed seems quiet low, mine ran $50-60, I think.)

I'm a fan of a lensatic compass, and the folding/durable style that locks the compass when not in use. Once you learn how to use one of these with a map, you'll understand why they are worth it. You really need one that you can site with, in my opinion, to get a line. The clear type that have the roamer built in can work, too, for a better price point.
I'd stay away from those 'clip on' or 'cap of the match holder' type compasses. They're hard to read, and even more difficult to pull a bearing.

The most important thing, though, is to learn how to use whatever compass you have. They can do so much more than tell you which way is North.

I use a small compass with a flip top sighting case similar to this model... http://www.rei.com/product/653748/suunt ... an-compass

When the case is opened at 45 degrees, you can sight distant objects through a notch in the edge of the case. The inside of the case is mirrored so you can read the compass face while sighting. I attach a lanyard and attach it to my belt.

When I go off-trail to backcountry camping sites, I also carry a GPS. However, to fully understand orienteering, I believe that one needs to be proficient with a compass before utilizing a GPS. Going with a GPS without compass training is like trying to do calculus without first knowing how to add or subtract.

Thanks for your heads up on matters gentlemen. I am such a noob when it comes to compasses. When Inca said the following:

The inside of the case is mirrored so you can read the compass face while sighting.

I honestly do not even know what you meant by sighting or how the mirrored cased would make things more benefical. I have never used a compass before and so all of this terminology is new to me. It has made me realize that even though I am only taking a beginner navigation class, it is best that I familiarize myself with all of the jargon so I can be one step ahead of everyone else in the class and not miss out on hearing something as I am stuck trying to figure out something that is mentioned along the way.

Tom that lensatic compass style you are referring to looks pretty neat and durable. You are correct when you suggested that the one on REI looks cheap. Not only that, it appears to have bad reviews.

For the time being, this was the compass I got: http://www.rei.com/product/408150/suunt ... er-compass Can either of you, or anyone else out there who has not contributed to the conversation tell me why they might suggest I return the one that I got for a different one. It seemed liked it had good reviews and that it was at a decent pricepoint. Anyways thanks for helping this compass novice out. I really appreciate it.

Inca I find your analogy between GPS and Math to be funny. Out of curiousity would you ever go backcountrying with just a compass or just a GPS unit alone? Also, when I think of a GPS unit, I think of using it on the roads and having a display tell me where to turn because it is programmed into the unit ahead of time. Does Isle Royale have coordinates that you can download onto your GPS to assist you along. Sorry if my questions sounds bizarre or clueless. I don't have much if any experience with GPS either other than seeing my friends operate it while navigating on the road during a vacation.

The compass you've selected should work fine. It will pair well with a topo (or other) map, since it was the built in roamer/grid on it. I wouldn't return it based on features we like on our own compasses, they are just different ways of acheiving the same goal.
As for GPS, I also carry one, as my "fun" weight. In addition to loading in camp/other coordinates, mine will also route on hiking trails (just like a car unit will do on roads) so you know how far you have to travel via trail, not just as the crow flies. The unit I use (by Delorme) also shows Topo maps, orthoquads, and can display (if downloaded) NOAA Charts, and both aerial/sat imagery. The latter is very helpful if you're hiking backcountry and want to see which ridges are wooded, and which are open...
While not necessary on Isle Royale, I like the gizmo factor it provides, and makes it easier when I seek out survey markers.

I seem to recall Tampico may have put together a Google Map with coordinates, or there is a list hovering around the forum. MikeT's IsleRoyale.info book also has that data in it, and is a good reference.

Hopefully, the instructor will talk about the different types of compasses in your upcoming beginner navigation class. The one you purchased should work fine.

I ALWAYS take a compass when I am out in the woods. I supplement the compass with a GPS when I want to precisely know where I am.

To better understand how to use a GPS, some basic compass/navigation training is recommended.

Any feature on the "National Geographic Trails Illustrated Map of Isle Royale" can easily be converted to a GPS coordinate by using the Latitude/Longitude or Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) scales that are printed along the border of the map.

I agree with Tom. The compass you purchased is quite sufficient. I actually wouldn't advise purchasing a lensatic compass unless you really know how to land navigate, and you are looking for really precise directions. For your purposes the compass you purchased is a good choice.

I learned how to use a lensatic compass in the Army and found that I couldn't walk and refer to it at the same time as the needle would just bounce around until I stopped and let it settle. That's fine when you're on a land nav test course of only a few hundred meters, looking for a white stake on a road lined with white stakes. Much later when I really learned how to use terrain association I was no longer concerned with following a perfect line from point A to point B. A Silva compass allowed me to walk a lot quicker and I could usually get to 'point B' faster by taking a longer route using terrain features to guide me. Try walking a short distance through a swamp sometime and you will understand that it's sometimes a lot easier to walk a long way around an obstacle like that than through it.

I used to carry both an Army lensatic compass (because I had to) which I rarely used, and the Silva which I always used when maneuvering off road on foot or in vehicles or just to get my basic orientation everywhere from Germany to the the Mojave desert. Military vehicles all bounce and the lensatic was a pain while the silva gave me the basic directional data I needed. But, there were times (pre GPS) when I needed to know exactly where I was to within a few meters on a map and the lensatic was essential.

Many years ago I was in an Army school at Fort Bragg, NC. What you could call the graduation exercise was in the mountains of central North Carolina. Too late I discovered that I'd forgotten my (mandatory) lensatic compass and all I had was a very simple Silva hidden in my first aid pouch as a backup. It carried me through two weeks of land navigation off road and off trail from the moment my parachute landed me in a tree at night until the end of the exercise with unfailing accuracy. I had absolute confidence in my basic Silva from then on. (My missing lensatic was never noticed and I certainly wasn't going to say anything.)

Final comment - a compass is only somewhat useful if you don't have map. It gets more useful as the quality of the map improves in detail. You can still get lost with a compass in hand so you need to know how to use it.

Thanks for all your help and input fellas.

Tom:

In addition to loading in camp/other coordinates, mine will also route on hiking trails (just like a car unit will do on roads) so you know how far you have to travel via trail, not just as the crow flies.

Sold!!! I want one. You said yours has the capability of providing this feature, but would you also imagine that any GPS unit of current times would be able to do so? If not, do you know what they would refer to this feature as in the specifications section of the units I would be considering to buy at the store? I would like having this perk, because it is always nice to know how far you are away from a certain campground when you feet, legs, and back are ready for a break after a long day of hiking.

The unit I use (by Delorme) also shows Topo maps, orthoquads, and can display (if downloaded) NOAA Charts, and both aerial/sat imagery. The latter is very helpful if you're hiking backcountry and want to see which ridges are wooded, and which are open.

I am such a novice, that none of these terms are relateable to my vocabulary or understanding. Can you explain each to me, or will it go over my head since I will not be taking my compass navigation class until next week and have not had the time to investigate such terms.

Topo Maps: I believe refer primarily to different elevations.

Orthoquads: No Clue.

NOAA Charts: Yikes. Huh?

Aerial/Sat imagery: Ummm....kinda like on google maps where you can zoom in and view objects and buildings surronding the street level? Or would this just be a helicopter view that is not as detailed?

Another thing Tom, or anyone else who care to answer, how much do GPS units weigh and how big are they? When I think of GPS units, I imagine something small, about the size of a cell phone. Something the size of something you would stick to the front windshield of a car. However, when you mention of the things your GPS unit cannot do, I begin wondering if it is not quite so small. Furthermore, I have been debating on getting my first smartphone for quite sometime now. How good are GPS units on smartphones? Do they have all the bells and whistles that normal GPS units have or are they not as efficent or as helpful? I am very interested in hearing answers to the questions posed in this paragraph.

Inca:

To better understand how to use a GPS, some basic compass/navigation training is recommended.

As you can see from what I was asking Tom, I have now developed an interest in GPS. However, I am going to wait until next year before investing in one. This year am going to put my primary focuses on learning how to use a compass. If it is as you say about better understanding GPS information by becoming familiar with compass navigation, I definitely think it will be best that I take the time to become familiarized with my compass and how to use it for the first year on my journey to become better aquainted with nagivation tools.

Gimp:

First off, thank you for serving our country. I have a brother that served a 5 year tour in the Marines and respect anyone that has done what he has done for our country. So thank you very much. Based off of what I am getting from everyone and yourself, almost every compass I come accross with the exception of a couple of really cheap ones, will allow me to nagivate where I need to go provided that I have trained myself in knowing how to operate it. After that, it seems as though everything else is a matter of personal preference i.e. whether or not it has a mirror, whether or not it is of the lensatic version, etc. However, in order to determine what particular things I express particular appreciation for will be based off of my initial compasses experiences. So long story short, it appears as though I should not be focusing on finding the perfect compass, but merely focusing on perfecting my compass skills. The former will come after the latter as I become more knowledgeable on navigation by way of compass. Does this sound right to you?

Rafiki -
Not all GPS units are alike, and so you really need to find the one that has the features you desire. There are two (maybe three, if we include marine) primary model types of GPS. Automotive, dash mount devices to get cars from point A to B, and have nice, big screens; and handheld, designed to be used afield with hikers and geocachers. They tend to be smaller and lighter. Mine clocks in around 6 oz.
They all can offer different features and different map sources, so I went with a model offered by a mapping company well known for it's data, Delorme. The unit comes with their Topo software, which provides me the ability to set routes to follow (it already has the I.R. trails and most National Parks already 'routed' on the maps) by setting start and stopping locations. The most recent model equivalent would be this: http://www.rei.com/product/801770/delor ... -pn-60-gps

As far as some definitions, I'll do my best to keep it simple.

Topo Maps: I believe refer primarily to different elevations. Correct, it's short for Topographic Map and it does just that. You get lines (typically every 10', but the map will say) showing you contours of the area, and then every 50 or 100' you get a 'major' contour for reference, and it's labelled. These maps often will indicate things like swamps/marshes, peak elevations, and reference points. Very common hiking fodder.

Orthoquads: No Clue. Perhaps more accurately, Digital Orthophoto Quarter Quadrangle, or DOQQ. Basically, 1-meter resolution (1 meter=1 pixel) aerial images that have been rectified/corrected to eliminate distortion. Very often now in color.

NOAA Charts: Yikes. Huh? National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration "water map." These are the folks that put out the official waterway charts for large bodies of water, indicating obstructions, etc.

Aerial/Sat imagery: Ummm....kinda like on google maps where you can zoom in and view objects and buildings surronding the street level? Or would this just be a helicopter view that is not as detailed? Somewhat like DOQQ, really, it's additional types of "looking down" images, of real life. Very handy if you're hiking backcountry, because you can often pick out things on the map. Various resolutions available, and zoomability is a function of the device, but very much like a Google Helicopter view. (But not "street view")

I should probably also mention USGS (US Geological Survey) "7.5 minute" quads, which often have Topo data on them. They are set to a specific scale (1:24000) which make them easy to use. These will also often show structures (at least in rural area) and other 'points of interest' that a cartographer may place.

I've never regretted buying a GPS, and have quite a bit of fun with it. I use it for hunting, hiking, and geocaching. (Geocaching is looking for small hidden items in various public places, and is a great way to get off trail at parks all around.) Bucket Bob was the one that turned me on to searching out the triangulation points embedded on Isle Royale, which is just another great reason to start hiking off trail, with purpose.

Smartphones will incorporate features of GPS, to some degree. The biggest achilles heal is that most require a data connection to maintain the mapping component, and you can't pop two AA batteries in your phone when it dies. They do just fine for Geocaching and automotive routing, but I'd stick to a more ruggedized and specific unit for hiking needs, especially in the data-void IR.

Rafiki wrote: I am such a novice, that none of these terms are relateable to my vocabulary or understanding. Can you explain each to me, or will it go over my head since I will not be taking my compass navigation class until next week and have not had the time to investigate such terms.

Topo Maps: I believe refer primarily to different elevations.

A map that has lines of equal elevation in addition to things like roads, trails, streams, etc. If you were to walk along one of the elevation lines you would stay a one altitude, going neither up nor down.

Orthoquads: No Clue.

A hybrid map/aerial photograph. It is an aerial photo (or collection of photos) corrected to have the same geometry as a topo map. Some geographic information may be included, such as roads, streams and boundaries. Often issued as a preliminary product before the topo sheet is completed.

NOAA Charts: Yikes. Huh?

Nautical charts are designed to assist the mariner in safe navigation. Focus is on the water, depths, hazards, location of channels, buoys, etc. Land is only shown as it relates to navigation of ships and boats. Information like the location and height of towers, hills, etc. Otherwise useless for land navigation.

Aerial/Sat imagery: Ummm....kinda like on google maps where you can zoom in and view objects and buildings surronding the street level? Or would this just be a helicopter view that is not as detailed?

Anything as seen from above. It can be a photo of the entire earth taken from the moon or a picture of your backyard taken from a kite.

Another thing Tom, or anyone else who care to answer, how much do GPS units weigh and how big are they?

Well, the first GPS unit I ever used was a Collins Triple-S. It was about 12" high, 10" wide and maybe 24" deep (as I recall). Today they range from the size of a cell phone to something you carry in a backpack. It all depends on what you need it for.

Rafiki on 5/29/12 wrote: ... since I will not be taking my compass navigation class until next week ...

So how was the class? Have you had any time to practice your newly acquired skills?

I wish I could say that the class taught me everything that I needed to know about using a compass, but in honesty it taught me the very basics about true north, declination, etc. I plan on buying a book that REI sells if the person at the library who's had it checked out for the last month does not return it soon. The book is already a week overdue so I'm going to give it until the end of July to see if the person returns it. Otherwise, I'm just going to shell out the cash and buy it. It will probably be good to have as a reference sitting at home whenever I care to review information that I have questions about. The name of the book is "Be Expert With Map and Compass: The Complete Orienteering Handbook" by Bjorn Rjellstrom. It has sold a lot of copies and a couple of be have spoken highly of it, so I figure why not give it a try Know of it or heard anything about it?

Before shelling out for a book, try online. There are a ton of websites specializing in orienteering, compass usage and map reading.

Ya. You make a good point. The only thing I don't like about online is that I have to read it off of my computer or print it out and read it. I dislike reading heaps of information from my computer screen and printing out stuff that is abnormally long in lengh can be cumbersome and wasteful if I read it only once. Plus I usually do most of my reading before I go to bed, so its nice having a book to warm up to rather than a stapled booklet of papers. I know all this may sound picky, but I'm kinda old school. I do not think I could every get one of this Kindle/Nook electronic book things. It will definitely take advantage of learning most of the basic stuff from online as I wait to see if the book is returned to my library. If worse comes to worse, maybe I can get it for cheaper off of Amazon

A basic Silva or Brunton compass with romer scales (which are useful in conjunction with the NatGeo ISRO map and a GPS to plot locations) should be all you need. I found that my Silva Ranger sighting compass was useful on the Minong in a stretch of trail where the cairns on exposed rock were missing and the trail was indistinct.

Keep in mind that if you are using GPS in conjunction with a map and compass you will need to be able to program your GPS correctly (to use GPS with the ISRO map will require you to program your GPS unit to NAD27 or NAD1927 [North American Datum 1927] and for output in UTM [Uniform Transverse Mercator] and meters. These settings will probably NOT be the default settings for your GPS unit, so you will need to read the programming manual for your GPS. Using a GPS unit that is improperly setup will give you misleading and inaccurate information which will not be helpful if you are in a critical situation. You will also want to know how to program way points into your GPS unit.

The NatGeo ISRO map has blue squares with blue print around the edges. These are the large 1km x 1km boxes that are the basis for reading UTM coordinates. With practice, you should be able to identify features down to 50m or so and you should be able to enter waypoints from your map to your GPS with similar accuracy (accuracy is degraded as the NatGeo map is a 1/50k map, you can do much better with a USGS 1/24k map).

A caveat: the compasses sold under the Silva brand in the US may or may not be imported from Sweden and may not be of the same quality as older Silva compasses. Brunton does import their compasses from Sweden. Camenga makes lensatic compasses in Dearborn MI and is the US government contractor for compasses. Keep in mind that if you do get a lensatic compass you will need to get a compass protractor (Silva and Brunton compasses have a protractor built into the body of a compass).

I would NOT recommend depending solely on a GPS unit, even if the GPS unit has mapping display features. Murphy seems attracted to electronic devices and they may fail at a critical time which would mean that you don't have a backup. GPS units are also affected by trees and rocks which may block satellite signals.